A great post over at Chaos & Old Night on how one can go about showing that Islam is inconsistent, and that Christianity alone is consistent:
“Allah as a monistic God cannot do what the Christian God can do. He can only reward obedience and punish wickedness but he cannot redeem and regenerate. This creates an ethical dilemma for Allah. According to Islam, Allah is holy and each person disobedient. But through the following the five pillars one can hope that Allah will show mercy. But nothing is done with the disobedience. Allah must simply ignore it if one is to hope to entern into heaven. But this cannot be done without Allah compromising his holiness. In Islam sin is not dealt with, it is punished in some and overlooked in others. In the Bible, however, we read of the progress of the triune God dealing with sin by conquering it and eliminating it, not simply punishing it and ignoring it.”
October 22, 2008 at 9:49 am |
Nathan,
That is not true. Allah is not just a rewarder and punisher. He much more than that. It is not only from the 5 pillars Allah shows mercy. In Islam, a believer can get mercy from anything and everything. One needs to repent sincerely for mercy, if one does not, he then is punished for his sins, until he can enter heaven. Allah, is the perfect monotheistic god, he is eternal, he is all living, he is self sufficient, he does not die for any body’s sins, nor does he have children that die for anybody else’s sins.
October 22, 2008 at 11:16 am |
But I2I, you have not shown how Allah justly deals with disobedience. Like the quote says, he just ignores it – but how can a holy God (as Islam claims Allah is) ignore sin? Sin must be dealt with. Does Allah just grant forgiveness because someone repents sincerely? So what, their sin just disappears? Must sin be punished? If I murder someone and a judge forgives me that judge is not just but has rather committed a travesty of justice! There is no room for forgiveness in the Islamic worldview – it is inconsistent to say that Allah is just, and therefore must punish sin, and at the same time Allah is just and therefore we can hope for forgiveness if we repent.
How can a just God ignore sin?
The God of the Bible, on the other hand, does not ignore sin. He dealt with it by the sacrifice of his Son (not a Son in terms of physical generation but in terms of special relationship, one in essence, yet distinct in person). Our God is not unjust, but paid the penalty himself for the sins of those who believe and repent. Therefore there is hope of salvation for all peoples.
“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” (Romans 3:23-26)
God is just and is the justifier of all who have faith in Jesus, for he paid the penalty of sin.
Allah is not just in ignoring sin – he is not righteous in forgiving the sin of those who repent.
October 22, 2008 at 2:58 pm |
Nathan,
Allah does not just ignore sin. There are punishment for sins. Stealing has a punishment. Killing has the punishment of death. Adultery has a punishment. So does slandering a woman. They are punished here. Qur’an list the punishment for all of those. Now about being punished in the hereafter, those who do not repent, and do not receive the punishment in this life, they will be punished in the hereafter. If they have repented, Allah is all forgiving.
How is that more just? What you are saying is even more unjust, that a persons sins are forgiven because an innocent person, god’s “son” paid for humanities sins. How is paying the penalty himself just? If you are using one logic, to describe Islam, why are you using a different logic to describe Christianity. I think this is more unjust, if I committed a crime, that the judge lets me off the hook, instead jails his son for my crime.
Allah is the most merciful, and the all forgiver. There is no need in logic for that. It’s quite simple, you believe in him, you repent to him, he forgives you.
Your God says to repent and he will forgive, but you ignore that. From the bible:
“If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.”
—2 Chronicles 7:14″
October 22, 2008 at 5:34 pm |
I2I,
I am the one who wrote the post that has been linked to here. I’ll just make a few brief comments.
1) Yes, the Old Testament says that there is forgiveness if there is repentance, but this in Christian theology this forgiveness is not provided by our repentance, it is provided by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on whose behalf we may be forgiven when we repent. We could repent all day long but without the satisfaction of the wrath of God in the death and resurrection of Christ there is no forgiveness. This is a major difference from Islam. Christianity doesn’t put forward an arbitrary God who could go either way when it comes it sin: forgive it or condemn it. Islam does.
2) You write, “It’s quite simple, you believe in him, you repent to him, he forgives you.” Tell me. Have you repented of every sin you have done? Maybe you left one out. Maybe you didn’t interpret the Qur’an just right and what you say is not a sin turns out to be a sin after all. Wouldn’t you perish in the afterlife like those you say don’t repent. Or does Allah just up and forgive anyway even though you didn’t repent? If I was a Muslim this question would keep me up at night.
I know that I haven’t repented of every last sin. My sin is even greater than I know. I sin in ways I don’t even recognize. All I can do is ask for God’s mercy for the sake of Christ. My forgiveness is not based on my perfect memory.
3) Your example about the judge doesn’t work. The judge and his son are not the creator of all things and more specifically not the ones who made me. Also, more is required than innocence with regard to my crime. The judge’s son may be innocent of my crime but he’s not sinless. In short, a human judge can’t serve as a proper analogy to God’s judgment.
4) You can deny the problem I raised in my post, but many Muslims are all too aware of this problem themselves. They work hard to please Allah, but in the end they can’t be sure that he will forgive them. I have spoken with many Muslims who have admitted this. And it’s a fearful thing. Denying my argument won’t make this problem that Muslims recognize go away. What you need to do is show them that Allah doesn’t compromise his holiness if he forgives sin. My argument is that Islam can’t show this without a mediator between Allah and humanity.
October 22, 2008 at 6:41 pm |
Fraiser,
Response to Point 1:
The bigger difference in Islam from Christianity is not forgiveness, but accountability of sin. In Islam, every person is held responsible for his or her own sin, not my fathers sin. While in Christianity, not only is the original sin still around, yet forgiveness for sins, go thru someone else. Some one else clears the Christians for their sins. While in Islam, we are all responsible for our own sins.
Response to Point 2:
Have I repented for every sin? I do not think I repented for every sin I did. Interpreting the Qur’an wrong unintentionally is another topic in of its self, but there is no sin if it is done by accidentally as long as it is not done on purpose for some other agenda. See your statement “wouldn’t you perish in the afterlife?” is an incorrect understanding of Islam. In Islam, if a person has sin, that Allah has not forgiven him, he will serve his punishment in Hell, but after a certain time, he will be removed from Hell and be allowed to enter Paradise. There are deeds Muslims can do, that will expedite all sins. Allah says in the Qur’an that he will forgive all sins, except one. Now this is quote is not as simple as read and understand. By forgiveness he means three things. He either forgives outright, or if one is non repentant about it, and he will have his sins expedited by his good deeds. And if none of the two above happen, he will be sent to hell until his sins have been expedited. The only sin that Allah does not forgive, is the sin of associating partners with him. Saying there is another god. Saying god has a son. Saying god is 2, 3, 4, and ect.
Response to Point 3:
True I agree that analogy I made has many flaws. Also, how does a god who forgives those who seek forgiveness, be more illogic, than a god who has his son expedite sins of all mankind?
Response to Point 4:
I am not denying anything you said, but this is not a problem to me. In Islam, it is quite simple, everyone who believes in Allah as the only god, and Muhammad as his messenger, Heaven has been promised to them. Simple as that, saying that means Heaven has been promised. 13:35 Qur’an. See I differ hugely with your comment “Islam can’t show this without a mediator between Allah and humanity” Islam has sent messengers down to give the message, but Islam does not require a middleman when speaking to our lord. Islam is quite simple; we have a direct line with god. We ask him for forgiveness, we don’t believe that some one else paid for our sins.
Thank You.
October 23, 2008 at 9:01 am |
This is one of those things like “The Bet” or St. Anselm’s ontological argument. The truth is that probably no one has ever been or will ever be converted to another religion by just a logical argument. There are two good reasons for this: 1) People are at best, maybe 30% logical and 70% emotional. 2) Even these so-called “a priori” type things (before experience) depend on a worldview-based logical structure. How hard would it be to imagine a world in which sin did not require punishment? Not that hard.
Knowing polemics can be valuable in making sure that Christianity does not appear foolish, but I would guess it is of dubious value in evangelism. As Paul says, “The kingdom of God is not a matter of talk, but of power.” The power of a transformed life speaks louder than any argument :)
But … I can’t resist not taking my own advice. Here’s a polemic for you guys.
1) The Qu’ran clearly tells true believers to listen to the “People of the Book” (Jews and Christians) because they have the true scriptures. In fact, he says, “If you have any questions, ask them.” Why wouldn’t a Muslim ask us, then, the way to heaven? They will probably say, “Because your scriptures are now corrupted. But, counter that with a question: were they corrupted before or after Muhammad? We know it was not after, because we have clear evidence that the Bible took its current form hundreds of years before the rise of Islam. Why then would Muhammad tell believers to listen to them, if the Bible was already corrupted?
October 23, 2008 at 10:18 am |
Ben,
Sorry I’m putting this bluntly, but what you said about the Qur’an, is not true at all. The Qur’an does not tell Muslims to follow the “people of scriptures” nor does it say to ask them for answers. The Qur’an does tell Muslims, who do not know to ask the “People of Knowledge”. “Ahlul Kitaab” means “people of scriptures” referring to Jews and Christians, while “Ahlul ilm” means “people of knowledge”. The Qur’an tells the Muslims, if you do not know, ask the people of knowledge, which it also refers to as ‘Ullema’ which means Scholars.
“So ask the People of Knowledge if you do not know” Qur’an:21:7
The Qur’an does tell the Muslims that the “people of the scriptures” were sent Prophets and Messengers of God, but they have become misguided over time.
“Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, ‘Trinity.’ Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs” (4:171).
Muslims believe the bible has been corrupted before the time of Muhammad. Since Muhammad use to tell his companions, that the gospel and the bible have both been corrupted.
Thank You
March 28, 2009 at 7:48 pm |
I2I,
I’ve come upon these posts rather late it seems. However, with all due respect Muslims as I understand it, and as your post would suggest, believe that Jesus is a messenger of God or a profit, rejecting the idea that Jesus is indeed God himself made flesh as the bible clearly teaches (John 1).
Concerning Jesus you have only 3 choices.
1. Lord – Jesus is God, and claimed to be God
2. Liar – Jesus is not God, but claimed to be God
3. Lunatic – Jesus is not God, but truly thought he was and so claimed to be God
It is a FACT that Jesus claimed to be God. So he was either crazy, lying, or telling the truth.
To say he is a prophet or a messenger of God if he is a blasphemer (claiming to be God when He isn’t) which would also put into play what you suggested is the only sin that is unforgivable.